Posted by Amanda on January 07, 1997 at 18:04:23:
In Reply to: Re: Bertrand Russell posted by Lynn on January 07, 1997 at 09:39:46:
: Hello Amanda,
: Thank you for the information. I think I should probably get one of his books and read it for myself so we can have a more interesting debate, never the less, I will take a stab at a couple of these points.
Most libraries should carry a few of his books - most likely a collection of his writings. Though you may not agree with him regarding religion, you might enjoy his views on other topics. Also, if you have any interest in philosphy and the life it has led - Wisdom of the West is a brilliant piece of work.
: I believe portions of the truth are sure to be found in most religions, (there are probably exceptions). Truth is truth, and it is not hidden only for a chosen few to find. The problem is, most of us, Christians included, like to pick out the part of the truth that suits us.
I'm not quite sure if I understand you here when you say that 'portions of the truth are to be found in most religions'. What sort of truth are you talking about? Do you have any examples of parts of other religions that could constitute the truth? I've looked at several myself (not in great depth) and I enjoy the ancient ones the most. Our creative minds are such fascinating things - I believe it is due to our curiosity and imagination that we have come this far in solving the mysteries of the Universe. I am grateful in a way, to past religions - including Christianity - for having the curiosity to ponder the big questions in the first place. Why are we here? What effect do the Cosmos have on us? Is there a thinking entity at the helm or are we a result of chance/accident/luck? Does form come before function or as I believe, function before form? It's wonderful to be able to ask these questions in the first place, let alone answer a few of them!
: "Judge not, lest ye be judged", means that Christians are not supposed to condemn others in our hearts and decide the condition of their spiritual health. I have always found it to be true that when I become angry with someone and get all eat up over it, I start looking at their life and pointing out all that is I see that is wrong in order to prove to myself that I am the better person, therefore, I am right. Inevitably, God will show me how I have also committed those same errors in one form or another (and many others besides), and reminds me about the depths from which I have been rescued, and that I ought to be thankful that the One who forgives me is far nobler, kinder, and merciful than I was just being to that other person. This is when I am reminded of the words, "judge not lest ye be judged".
: This is not an instruction to let criminals run amuck. America is considered to be a Christian country, founded on Christian principles, at least that's what people on both sides of the God issue keep telling me. It is my understanding that we have a pretty liberal justice system compared to most countries. Have I been misinformed?
I like your interpretation of the 'judging' quote - I too have made the same mistake of judging a person in hopes to prove I was a better person. God wasn't the one that showed me that this was wrong however - it was something I realized for myself and continue to remind myself of when the need arises. The idea to 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' which is a bit of a take of from the 'judging' quote did not originate in Jesus' days however and was around before Judaism as well. I think it is we humans that figured this one out - a part of morality that Jesus recognized as valuable and thankfully brought to more people's attention. Unfortuantely, many christians and non-christians alike have forgotten this ethical statement and by horrific actions, have practiced the opposite.
Regarding - America...this country was a product of the Enlightenment. Jefferson and Franklin were part of a society called "the Lunar Society" in England before coming here - Erasmus Darwin (Charles' grandfather) was also a member. They were what you might call freethinkers of that age and when drawing up the constitution attempted to keep Christianity or any other religion out of it. It was the first sign of a separation of church and state. In no way were they atheists but they did see the importance of keeping religion out of running a democracy. In the Bill of Rights - freedom of religion is an important part. Anyone should be able to practice whatever religion they like without fear of persecution. I agree with this. Unfortunately, much pressure was made by christian clergy and the like and the division line between church and state got a bit fuzzy, which can still be seen today.
: "There are some standing here who will not taste of death until they see the Son of Man come into his Kingdom" is not a very good example of that very interesting point. This is referring to the Transfiguation of Christ, when the apostles witnessed Jesus in his glorified state talking with Moses and Elijah in a cloud.
: The Jews living at that time were witnessing the "end of the age" as pertaining to the Old Testament law and the way they percieved God.
: As Jesus was being led to the cross, a woman was following behind him weeping and waling. Jesus said something to the effect of, "Woman do not weep for me, but for yourself and your children." There were terrible times of persecution and war after Jesus' death. There are many references to these times of trouble in the New Testament, and they are sometimes hard to distinguish from end time prophecy. I do not yet totally understand this subject myself, but I am fascinated by it and hope to have a better answer one day.
Interesting interpretation - thank you. Besides what I've read in the NT and a few historical accounts of the time - I know very little and understand it even less. I'm assuming you believe then that the apostles did see Jesus after he was resurrected? Do you have anything more to say about this - I'd be interested. Also, how do you interpret what Jesus meant by what he said to the crying woman? Also, what do you think about the idea that Christians were angry with the Jews and Romans for crucifying Jesus - do you not think that if it was God's will for Jesus to die at the cross then they shouldn't have been angry?
: The thing about never being forgiven for blaspheming the Holy Spirit pertains to a particular circumstance. If you'll notice, He says that all sins , including anything spoken against the Son of Man, (i.e., Jesus, God..) WILL be forgiven. In this instance, someone was saying that the miracles that Jesus had performed through the Holy Spirit were of the Devil. I guess that's where God has drawn his line where forgivenss is concerned.
So if one were to say that Jesus was possessed by the devil or something to that effect, hw would not be forgiven, ever?
The Catholics interpret the Holy Spirit as the 'truth' - what do you interpret it as?
It's an interesting topic...just one more question...
Why is it that according to christian doctrines (if I've understood them correctly) would a man, who has led the mst noble of lives - been honest and kind and absolutely wonderful - but never became a Christian (perhaps even was an atheist) - why would he go to Hell and a man who was the most vile and loathsome type - commiting unspeakable crimes throughout his life - but confessed to his sins, embraced Jesus and God on his deathbed and was baptized or whatever is necessary to become a Chrsitian - why would he go to heaven?
Thanks Lynn - I'm enjoying this 'new and better' way of debate!